I'm really split on this. Obviously I agree with these points at face value, but also it completely misses the point of what "they hate queer people" is getting at. Please let me steel-man "they hate queer people", below.
The underlying point is that Gazans hating queer people is an example of a broader truth: that pro-Palestine sentiment is bifurcated into two camps which couldn't be more different - a (mostly white, western) camp that views it through the lens of decolonisation and social justice, and a (mostly Arab Muslim) camp that views it through the lens of Islamic supremacy and anti-semitism. Differing attitudes on homosexuality is but one aspect of this, though also women's rights, democracy, separation of church and state... the list of issues on which the two worldviews are irreconcilably opposed is far longer than the list of issues where they overlap. This second group is awful, supporting Palestinian liberation for all the wrong reasons, and the first group is wilfully blind to it.
Of course this still means that Gazans have human rights. The bombing is still abhorrent. But I am extremely uneasy about naive westerners linking arms with Muslim Brotherhood types, because those people ultimately *do not want the same things that western progressives want.* They don't want peace; they want violent war against Israel (which is why they celebrated October 7). At some point, if you do not distance yourselves from these people, are you marching for peace, or for war?
To quote Team America, "sometimes pussies get so full of shit that they become assholes". (For context, "pussies" = anti-war westerners, "assholes" = supporters of foreign terrorism.) This is what I fear is happening to the western branch of the Palestinian movement, if it hasn't happened already.
My concern from what I've read is that there are protest groups that are not pro palastinian but pro hamas which is possibly what the argument based on.
Hamas in addition to being a terrorist group is also a radical islamist group that has killed Palestinians even accused of being LGBTQ+.
Gay Palestinians have been given asylum in Israel to protect them from attacks.
Hi Ari - this argument has been screamed at me, a Polish Jewish lesbian descended from Holocaust survivors. I am vociferously anti-Hamas, and the people screaming at me know this. The point is to discredit anyone who sees Palestinians as human beings.
I agree with everything you said. Honestly, It's just a very odd thing to bring up at all in the context of civilians and their homes being bombed inside a pen. You either do or you don't think it's fine to intentionally cause a famine and projecting American/western culture war issues onto the situation makes my skin crawl. Honestly, even when I see signs that are like 'Queers for Palestine' I get weirded out. I'm a human being who doesn't like to see other humans starve to death. Me being queer is utterly besides the point
Overlaying homo-anything-issues onto what’s happening to the people of Gaza is a stupid, yet effective distraction that obviously serves to dilute any voices rising in protest of the wholesale slaughter of Gaza’s captive population. These protesters dressed up in their halloween Hamas gittiups are by design serving Israel’s interest well. In the mean time, all of the kids along with their moms and dads trapped in Gaza with no way out are reaching for their next day of life, and it’s not going too well.
LGBTQ: “Let’s Get Biden To Quit!”
Can’t wait to get a real leader back in the place it matters most:
I think about this all the time, in part because my mother and grandmother were Holocaust survivors. And my mom was a pretty terrible mom - narcissistic, raging, zero empathy. Ok - does that mean she deserved her trauma? Of course not. Did the Holocaust inadvertently kill rapists and murderers along with “innocent” victims? Of course it did. None of that rationalizes Naziism. I don’t need Palestinians to love me as a queer, or as a Jew, for me to oppose collective punishment and barbarism committed in my name.
And even if they were "all queerphobic", how do you expect them to change in an open air prison? I'm sure the people of Ukraine aren't the most progressive either. Does that mean we should just let Russia invade them? When republicans wanted to "liberate" Iraq, at the same time they were going on and on about how all muslims are terrorists. What religion do you think the people of Iraq are? It's not like they have a consistent position of their own. At least the people of Gaza get to plead ignorance when it comes to LGBTQ people. Republicans don't. They've been exposed to gay people for at least half a century now. They're well past the ignorance phase and just in the "being a stubborn asshole" phase.
Here's something I find a bit disturbing about this whole presumption: I hear it being used by lesbian Jewish comedian Judy Gold almost every other week on her podcast, generally tied to a rant about people not being able to understand nuance. The irony is suffocating.
I'm really split on this. Obviously I agree with these points at face value, but also it completely misses the point of what "they hate queer people" is getting at. Please let me steel-man "they hate queer people", below.
The underlying point is that Gazans hating queer people is an example of a broader truth: that pro-Palestine sentiment is bifurcated into two camps which couldn't be more different - a (mostly white, western) camp that views it through the lens of decolonisation and social justice, and a (mostly Arab Muslim) camp that views it through the lens of Islamic supremacy and anti-semitism. Differing attitudes on homosexuality is but one aspect of this, though also women's rights, democracy, separation of church and state... the list of issues on which the two worldviews are irreconcilably opposed is far longer than the list of issues where they overlap. This second group is awful, supporting Palestinian liberation for all the wrong reasons, and the first group is wilfully blind to it.
Of course this still means that Gazans have human rights. The bombing is still abhorrent. But I am extremely uneasy about naive westerners linking arms with Muslim Brotherhood types, because those people ultimately *do not want the same things that western progressives want.* They don't want peace; they want violent war against Israel (which is why they celebrated October 7). At some point, if you do not distance yourselves from these people, are you marching for peace, or for war?
To quote Team America, "sometimes pussies get so full of shit that they become assholes". (For context, "pussies" = anti-war westerners, "assholes" = supporters of foreign terrorism.) This is what I fear is happening to the western branch of the Palestinian movement, if it hasn't happened already.
This article has some good points.
My concern from what I've read is that there are protest groups that are not pro palastinian but pro hamas which is possibly what the argument based on.
Hamas in addition to being a terrorist group is also a radical islamist group that has killed Palestinians even accused of being LGBTQ+.
Gay Palestinians have been given asylum in Israel to protect them from attacks.
Unfortunately nothing is black and white.
Hi Ari - this argument has been screamed at me, a Polish Jewish lesbian descended from Holocaust survivors. I am vociferously anti-Hamas, and the people screaming at me know this. The point is to discredit anyone who sees Palestinians as human beings.
What "pro-Hamas protest groups"? That is nonsense.
I agree with everything you said. Honestly, It's just a very odd thing to bring up at all in the context of civilians and their homes being bombed inside a pen. You either do or you don't think it's fine to intentionally cause a famine and projecting American/western culture war issues onto the situation makes my skin crawl. Honestly, even when I see signs that are like 'Queers for Palestine' I get weirded out. I'm a human being who doesn't like to see other humans starve to death. Me being queer is utterly besides the point
Overlaying homo-anything-issues onto what’s happening to the people of Gaza is a stupid, yet effective distraction that obviously serves to dilute any voices rising in protest of the wholesale slaughter of Gaza’s captive population. These protesters dressed up in their halloween Hamas gittiups are by design serving Israel’s interest well. In the mean time, all of the kids along with their moms and dads trapped in Gaza with no way out are reaching for their next day of life, and it’s not going too well.
LGBTQ: “Let’s Get Biden To Quit!”
Can’t wait to get a real leader back in the place it matters most:
Trump 2024 🇺🇸
I think about this all the time, in part because my mother and grandmother were Holocaust survivors. And my mom was a pretty terrible mom - narcissistic, raging, zero empathy. Ok - does that mean she deserved her trauma? Of course not. Did the Holocaust inadvertently kill rapists and murderers along with “innocent” victims? Of course it did. None of that rationalizes Naziism. I don’t need Palestinians to love me as a queer, or as a Jew, for me to oppose collective punishment and barbarism committed in my name.
And even if they were "all queerphobic", how do you expect them to change in an open air prison? I'm sure the people of Ukraine aren't the most progressive either. Does that mean we should just let Russia invade them? When republicans wanted to "liberate" Iraq, at the same time they were going on and on about how all muslims are terrorists. What religion do you think the people of Iraq are? It's not like they have a consistent position of their own. At least the people of Gaza get to plead ignorance when it comes to LGBTQ people. Republicans don't. They've been exposed to gay people for at least half a century now. They're well past the ignorance phase and just in the "being a stubborn asshole" phase.
Thank you for this article Chris. You are right on.
You should watch this film: https://www.theguardian.com/film/article/2024/may/16/yolande-zauberman-documentary-the-belle-from-gaza-cannes-film-festival
Here's something I find a bit disturbing about this whole presumption: I hear it being used by lesbian Jewish comedian Judy Gold almost every other week on her podcast, generally tied to a rant about people not being able to understand nuance. The irony is suffocating.
I’m really disappointed in her.